The following post is an entire topic copied from the discontinued NuVinci Forum. The majority is written by members of the old forum and not by me.
Some information about this fault in case anyone happens to have a hub that does this.
by The_Metatron on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:58 pm
I have my replacement N360, a 2012 model, installed and it works well. No leaks.
However, the freehub pawls occasionally make a hell of a snap sound when I apply pedaling force. Not every time, mind you. But sometimes. And, it's pretty loud.
What can be done about this?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
My 2012 model N360 does exactly the same thing. I decided as it wasn’t affecting the operation of the hub to ignore it. After 400 miles it is occurring much less then when it was new in fact I’m not sure whether it still does it or maybe I have got used to it.
It is a loud noise when it happens just as The_Metatron describes a rather alarming snap sound.
........__o
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......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:05 am
Possibly a bit of additional grease might be needed on the pawls if they seem dry. I haven't heard about this being an issue from an operational standpoint, so try the grease check and keep us posted on if that is the case or not. If it is not the case, or it does not help, then we can revisit the issue.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:37 pm
Lost the picture for here but it was of a greased free hub.
As you can see, the free hub was not dry at all. Nonetheless, I packed it well with grease when I reassembled it.
A test ride revealed no change to the occasional bangs when applying pedal power.
What I did find was a full millimeter of thrust play on the freehub. What is happening, is the entire freehub is slapping from one end of its play to the other, depending on the pedal making the power stroke. This can do nothing but get worse, eventually breaking one of the circular retaining clips that hold the freehub in position.
What it needs is a 0.8mm thrust washer to stop that slapping from end to end of its travel on the axle shaft.
Where can I get one of these?
Your suggestion to fix this noise?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:56 pm
I also noticed there was a lot if play on the freewheel assembly when I first got my hub so this does seem to be a likely explanation. As I said before my hub has improved with use so do a few hundred miles and see if it is still happening a lot.
I think it is going to be hard to find exactly what is happening to create this noise and although the noise sounds bad I don’t feel it will result in a failure.
........__o
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......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:18 pm
I find I am able to create this bang just about any time. If I push hard with one pedal, that will set the freehub to one end of its travel. Then, if I push hard with the other pedal after coasting, I can recreate that bang.
This is not a normal bike noise, and intolerable from so expensive a component.
What is the way forward to get a thrust washer/shim for the free hub?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:18 pm
If I was riding in a town or city I would also what it fixed as it isn’t great having a bike that makes a snapping noise.
If Fallbrook don’t come up with anything then a search of the internet should come up with a supplier that can provide washers of the right size. When I have some spare time I might do some investigation, take some measurements and probably make a washer to so if it helps. My hub does still make the noise but it’s not as loud which is why I don’t notice it as much.
........__o
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......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:53 am
What I had in mind was a spring clip of the right internal diameter. It would be very hard steel, and would probably be just the right thickness, or could be bought at the right thickness.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:04 pm
I talked with the Product Manager and he gave me 4 questions (the first and the last are multiple choice- if what you are experiencing is not there, then please add that to the answer) to ask each of you as it relates to the hub and the issue being discussed here. If you want, we can take this offline into a private message thread and eventually into email, or we can just answer them here. Your call. The questions are below:
1. What motion do you notice on the freehub assembly?
a. Axial play (moving in and out along the axis of the axle)
b. Looseness (rocking around)
c. Axial run-out or “wobble”
2. Is the motion isolated to the sprocket or the freewheel?
3. What is the serial number and/or configuration of the hub (MY2012 or earlier)?
4. What is the motion causing in particular?
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 pm
Unless this issue is going to cause a failure of the hub I’m not too bothered about getting it fixed. As I said the noise has become quieter after 400 miles. Here are my answers to the questions.
1. Axial play (moving in and out along the axis of the axle) approx 1mm
2. Freewheel
3. 2012 model N132255
4. Noise
I have had a look at my hub and can now explain exactly what is happening to create this noise.
It is the interaction between two forces that is the cause.
Force 1 is the frictional force between the pawls and ratchet which tries to keep the freewheel assembly in a fixed position within the axial play.
Force 2 is the sideways (parallel to axel) force exerted on the sprocket and freewheel assembly when the chainline is not perfectly straight.
Both forces are proportional to the torque applied to the pedals. However at a particular torque force 2 overcomes force 1 and as The_Metatron describes, the entire freewheel assembly slips from one end of its play to the other and hits the snap ring (freewheel).
I suppose chainline must have a lot to do with this, perhaps we both have the same.
If this makes sense please pass it on to the product team they might find it useful.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:30 am
I will definitely pass this on (Metatron- I hope you answer the questions as well).
Thank you Oran for answering the questions. When I find out what they say and have something to report back, I promise I will.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:59 pm
Oran is dead on in his analysis. I have the exact same answers to those questions, except my serial number is N132827. Also, the interior snap ring, as you can see in my photo, is properly seated, as was the exterior snap ring.
Man, those bangs are LOUD.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:02 pm
What it needs is a thrust washer to take up that axial play. If I had a dial caliper or micrometer to measure the diameter of the axle at that point, I'd see what I could find to do the job. But, I don't have either of those things, and I don't want to buy a pocketful of snap rings or washers to try and find one that fits.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:58 pm
Thanks Metatron. I have passed both of your answers/ comments (actually the whole thread) to our Product Team. Now we wait and see what they come up with.
More to come...
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:19 pm
My freehub has recently begun making the same noise. I stumbled across this thread when googling the issue. At first I thought it was the chain riding over the rear cog but I'm using a 42/22 gear configuration with a tensioner so there is plenty of chain engagement. The chain is well within tolerance for wear as well. I did some playing around with it and it seems to happen when I go from pedaling to stopping back to pedaling.
I think my freehub has become contaminated as well, because there is a slightly gritty noise to it now. I recently broke down the shifting unit and cleaned it because I had a particularly nasty ride when I was caught in a storm and the drivetrain got absolutely coated in detritus, and noticed drag and grittiness in the shifting. I am using sealed ferrules and full length housing. This is purely speculative until I break the unit down. Will doing so void my warranty or is this considered normal maintenance? I know Fallbrook is very specific on what can be serviced.
I will post my hub model number and some pictures in the next few days when I get the time to service it. For what it's worth I purchased my hub in 2011. It has about 3000 miles on it now, all commuting to and from work on road.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:40 am
Hi CrazyLemurBoy,
Yes, cracking open the hub will void the warranty. If the hub is in need of replacement, we will replace the hub with a new model as we don't do repairs on units that are potentially damaged.
You can clean inside the cassette body area and inside the shifter if need be, but inside of the hub itself (where the ball bearings are) is what I am referring to when voiding the warranty.
Please provide your serial number and take a look at the questions a few posts up from here and try to answer those in your post. We are currently researching the issues that Oran and Metatron are having, so we can add you to the list if this is the case.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:42 pm
Hello NuVinci Support,
Thank you for the response. I was referring only to the cassette body/freehub mechanism, not the internal gear system itself. This is safe to disassemble yes? I just got back from riding so I haven't had a chance to take a look at the hub yet. I will post my results once I have collected them.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:16 am
There is a sealed cartridge bearing in there, so from a service standpoint, you can pull the bearing apart and re-grease as necessary. Otherwise, yes, you are free to service this area and it will not void the warranty.
We have had customers who have wanted to crack open the actual hub itself and this does void the warranty.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:26 pm
I went ahead and disassembled the cassette/freehub body. What a mess. The freehub seal to the hub face was well breached. I found plenty of grit and grime all around the pawls, which was causing one of them to not 'pop out' and engage at all! I also discovered metal fragments and that all 3 pawls had been blunted or damaged on the face, at least from what I can tell (not particularly visible in my photos). I have never inspected the unit before this time, but the wear I could see was not uniform.
Here is a link to my disassembly photos.
http://imgur.com/a/cCudA#0
Despite the low resolution phone pictures (apologies, no other camera on hand), you can clearly see the large amount of debris that went past the seal. I cleaned the unit and have since re-lubricated it using a middle-weight oil as specified by the manual. It spins much smoother now but I have not gone riding to test it out.
After disassembling the unit all I can say is wow... 3 pawls? 3 points of engagement? Not to mention relying on a very weak retaining ring to provide spring tension. Nobody uses such a low engagement system anymore. Not to mention how well the 'seal' works. I checked my odometer - 2769.5 miles. I purchased this hub to be used on nasty days and poor weather as it had a reputation for robustness. I'll be honest, I am very disappointed in the freehub body.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:30 pm
We have made some significant improvements from a seal and snap ring perspective to the freehub body for 2012, as well as some structural improvements to handle the Gates cogs.
Please send an email to our support group at support@fallbrooktech.com. They can best determine if this would be considered a warranty issue and then can go about replacing the freehub body for you.
We will make sure you are well taken care of through our support group, so do not fear that we won't back up the product for you.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:35 pm
I sent support a message last per your advice. I am interested to see the improvements on the 2012 model should I receive a replacement.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by mwjh on Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:36 am
Probably most so not all problems are solved after mounting the new 2012 freewheel. The new one is partly made out of stronger metal, has a slightly stronger spring and no rubber or plastic sealing anymore. This sealing caused some friction anyhow and reduced the effiency of the hub with at least a few percent in my perception. See pictures
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:08 pm
How long does it take to get an answer on this problem? These bangs and snaps aren't going away by themselves.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:37 pm
I was wondering the same thing as it is now Friday.
If anyone wants to experiment with thrust washers the axel diameter is 17mm.
While I had the wheel off the bike I used one of the snap rings from an old hub to reduce the axial play. The snap ring has a thickness of 0.5mm and this reduced the play by 60 – 70%. The effect on the bang/snap noise however is absolutely nothing. I was expecting it to be reduced but it seems the play has to be completely removed. It makes me wonder if the issue isn’t a lot more complicated.
I also checked the hub for leaks and it is looking good after 550 mile.
It was the first time I had dismantled a 2012 model freewheel and I’m very unimpressed with the seal. CrazyLemurBoy if you are considering getting a 2012 freewheel don’t bother. If the old freewheel seal isn’t up to the job a 2012 one will be hopeless. With the hub being maintenance free and sealed for life it is a pity so little effort has been put into making the freewheel low maintenance.
June 2013 I have been proved wrong on this last point as my free hub is staying clean.
I’m interested to see what the product team come up with to fix the bang/snap noise.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by FransM on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:31 am
I also measured som axial play (on the 2012 freewheel), but only 0,6 mm. But no bangs/snaps whatsoever.
I was also surprised about the apparant lack of seal on the 2012 freewheel. However, after having done some serious dirt riding I saw no contamination in the freewheel.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:54 am
As far as timing on getting an answer, the product team is currently working on the situation and is looking for a resolution.
More to come....
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:31 am
This topic has been moved offline.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:37 pm
I just wanted to say thank you to the support network from Fallbrook. Whenever an issue has cropped up (and not many have!) they have been there 100% to back me up, and have always addressed my concerns quickly. I look forward to maintaining this relationship for many years.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:48 pm
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:44 am
When can we expect those replacement free hubs?
Also, we never got a reply to my question asking what specifically is defective about my free hub that this replacement will solve? What's different with the new one?
Jess
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:23 pm
I have received and installed my new freehub. I've taken it on a few commutes. The freehub body makes a much more pronounced ratcheting noise now, before it was nearly silent. The new seal design seems to have significantly reduced drag on the pawls and the freehub body / hub interface. The engagement is much more pronounced. However, I now have the axial play you guys mentioned, but only when the hub is off the bike. When it's mounted I cannot get the sprocket to move, so this is good enough. Just like old cup and cone bearings I guess.
After a few test rides, I can safely say this model is improved. However, I still experienced one banging noise coming from the hub during a pedal - coast - pedal maneuver on flat land. It has been storming almost around the clock here in central FL so I'm sure the seal is being tested as I just push through the rain. Time will tell. I am happy to report that the service from Fallbrook has been outstanding, they have provided me with fixes for any issue that has cropped up. Thank you.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:13 pm
I also received my new freehub body the other day. This and an extra snap ring which takes up most of the axial play have fixed the issue. I didn’t realize how often it was making the snap/bang noise until it is now silent.
I agree with CrazyLemurBoy about the service from Fallbrook they have always managed to keep my bike equipped with a functioning CVT.
........__o
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......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by FransM on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:46 am
A question: Is the new freehub body the 2012 version or is it an update of the 2012 version?
If it is an update, what are the differences?
And what is the extra snap ring? Are there now two snap rings, and do they have te same thickness?
Thanks for any info on this.
Frans
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:59 am
It is the 2012 model. No new updates to speak of. The snap rings should be the same thickness. In general, there should be the one snap ring, but in cases like this, this is where the solution comes into play.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:16 pm
From what I can tell, the biggest improvement is in the seal. It no longer rests on top of the pawls, which introduced drag and when contaminated with road debris or grit the excess friction caused them to malfunction occasionally. Since I've cleaned mine out and used the new parts I was sent I have far more confidence in the freewheel. It clicks with authority unlike my previous model which was hardly audible.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:18 am
In installed the replacement free hub today. But, before I did, I took a couple photos, to see if there were any differences between the old one and the replacement. It seems there are.
The first is the snap ring that holds a washer onto the middle of the old free hub, on the left. This is totally absent from the new free hub, on the right. This hub has been machined with that flange simply a part of the hub. Simpler, fewer parts.
IMGP9680_small.jpg
The next photo shows what I think is the important difference. Note the difference in length of the freehub from the pawl side (up) of the washer on the left hub to the centerline of the pawl spring slot and the same length from the pawl side of the machined flange to the centerline of the pawl spring slot on the new free hub on the right. I have no calipers, but that is at least a millimeter, maybe 1.5 millimeters longer on the original free hub.
IMGP9683_small.jpg
It could be, coupled with the axial play on the old free hub, that the pawls were being held against the inner edge of the hub body by the force of the axial play of the free hub, and not engaging the hub body teeth fully until the axial play of the free hub relaxed, allowing the pawls to drop into the teeth.
The replacement seal is identical to the original. Removing the original snaps off the teeth that hold it onto the hub body, so I used the replacement when I re-assembled the hub. I also used the extra snap ring against the inner snap ring, and there is no further detectable axial play of the free hub.
There are also no further bangs/snaps under operation. I could not re-create the problem.I think the second batch of freehubs is going to do the trick for this model of the N360.
As long as all the oil stays inside of it, we're in business. Well done, Dave. Thanks for your help.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:41 pm
And, it was premature to say those snap/bangs are gone. Took it on my commute run today, and although they were less frequent, they are still there.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:14 am
Let's see if the snap/ bangs settle in. As you said earlier, as the long as the oil stays inside, we're in business.
If the snap/ bangs don't go away, we can do some more checks/ research into the issue and go from there. Of course, we will do everything we can to rectify the situation for you.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
The discussion continued but became about the use of costumers for product development and it was also interrupted by spam. I have decided not to include it as I don’t think it will be helpful.
June 2013 In recent months my hub has begun to make the noise again and it has now done 2200 miles (3500 km). It seems to be a difficult problem to solve although fortunately it seems to have no affect on the function of the hub.
Some information about this fault in case anyone happens to have a hub that does this.
by The_Metatron on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:58 pm
I have my replacement N360, a 2012 model, installed and it works well. No leaks.
However, the freehub pawls occasionally make a hell of a snap sound when I apply pedaling force. Not every time, mind you. But sometimes. And, it's pretty loud.
What can be done about this?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:54 pm
My 2012 model N360 does exactly the same thing. I decided as it wasn’t affecting the operation of the hub to ignore it. After 400 miles it is occurring much less then when it was new in fact I’m not sure whether it still does it or maybe I have got used to it.
It is a loud noise when it happens just as The_Metatron describes a rather alarming snap sound.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:05 am
Possibly a bit of additional grease might be needed on the pawls if they seem dry. I haven't heard about this being an issue from an operational standpoint, so try the grease check and keep us posted on if that is the case or not. If it is not the case, or it does not help, then we can revisit the issue.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:37 pm
Lost the picture for here but it was of a greased free hub.
As you can see, the free hub was not dry at all. Nonetheless, I packed it well with grease when I reassembled it.
A test ride revealed no change to the occasional bangs when applying pedal power.
What I did find was a full millimeter of thrust play on the freehub. What is happening, is the entire freehub is slapping from one end of its play to the other, depending on the pedal making the power stroke. This can do nothing but get worse, eventually breaking one of the circular retaining clips that hold the freehub in position.
What it needs is a 0.8mm thrust washer to stop that slapping from end to end of its travel on the axle shaft.
Where can I get one of these?
Your suggestion to fix this noise?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:56 pm
I also noticed there was a lot if play on the freewheel assembly when I first got my hub so this does seem to be a likely explanation. As I said before my hub has improved with use so do a few hundred miles and see if it is still happening a lot.
I think it is going to be hard to find exactly what is happening to create this noise and although the noise sounds bad I don’t feel it will result in a failure.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:18 pm
I find I am able to create this bang just about any time. If I push hard with one pedal, that will set the freehub to one end of its travel. Then, if I push hard with the other pedal after coasting, I can recreate that bang.
This is not a normal bike noise, and intolerable from so expensive a component.
What is the way forward to get a thrust washer/shim for the free hub?
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:18 pm
If I was riding in a town or city I would also what it fixed as it isn’t great having a bike that makes a snapping noise.
If Fallbrook don’t come up with anything then a search of the internet should come up with a supplier that can provide washers of the right size. When I have some spare time I might do some investigation, take some measurements and probably make a washer to so if it helps. My hub does still make the noise but it’s not as loud which is why I don’t notice it as much.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:53 am
What I had in mind was a spring clip of the right internal diameter. It would be very hard steel, and would probably be just the right thickness, or could be bought at the right thickness.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:04 pm
I talked with the Product Manager and he gave me 4 questions (the first and the last are multiple choice- if what you are experiencing is not there, then please add that to the answer) to ask each of you as it relates to the hub and the issue being discussed here. If you want, we can take this offline into a private message thread and eventually into email, or we can just answer them here. Your call. The questions are below:
1. What motion do you notice on the freehub assembly?
a. Axial play (moving in and out along the axis of the axle)
b. Looseness (rocking around)
c. Axial run-out or “wobble”
2. Is the motion isolated to the sprocket or the freewheel?
3. What is the serial number and/or configuration of the hub (MY2012 or earlier)?
4. What is the motion causing in particular?
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 pm
Unless this issue is going to cause a failure of the hub I’m not too bothered about getting it fixed. As I said the noise has become quieter after 400 miles. Here are my answers to the questions.
1. Axial play (moving in and out along the axis of the axle) approx 1mm
2. Freewheel
3. 2012 model N132255
4. Noise
I have had a look at my hub and can now explain exactly what is happening to create this noise.
It is the interaction between two forces that is the cause.
Force 1 is the frictional force between the pawls and ratchet which tries to keep the freewheel assembly in a fixed position within the axial play.
Force 2 is the sideways (parallel to axel) force exerted on the sprocket and freewheel assembly when the chainline is not perfectly straight.
Both forces are proportional to the torque applied to the pedals. However at a particular torque force 2 overcomes force 1 and as The_Metatron describes, the entire freewheel assembly slips from one end of its play to the other and hits the snap ring (freewheel).
I suppose chainline must have a lot to do with this, perhaps we both have the same.
If this makes sense please pass it on to the product team they might find it useful.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:30 am
I will definitely pass this on (Metatron- I hope you answer the questions as well).
Thank you Oran for answering the questions. When I find out what they say and have something to report back, I promise I will.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:59 pm
Oran is dead on in his analysis. I have the exact same answers to those questions, except my serial number is N132827. Also, the interior snap ring, as you can see in my photo, is properly seated, as was the exterior snap ring.
Man, those bangs are LOUD.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:02 pm
What it needs is a thrust washer to take up that axial play. If I had a dial caliper or micrometer to measure the diameter of the axle at that point, I'd see what I could find to do the job. But, I don't have either of those things, and I don't want to buy a pocketful of snap rings or washers to try and find one that fits.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:58 pm
Thanks Metatron. I have passed both of your answers/ comments (actually the whole thread) to our Product Team. Now we wait and see what they come up with.
More to come...
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:19 pm
My freehub has recently begun making the same noise. I stumbled across this thread when googling the issue. At first I thought it was the chain riding over the rear cog but I'm using a 42/22 gear configuration with a tensioner so there is plenty of chain engagement. The chain is well within tolerance for wear as well. I did some playing around with it and it seems to happen when I go from pedaling to stopping back to pedaling.
I think my freehub has become contaminated as well, because there is a slightly gritty noise to it now. I recently broke down the shifting unit and cleaned it because I had a particularly nasty ride when I was caught in a storm and the drivetrain got absolutely coated in detritus, and noticed drag and grittiness in the shifting. I am using sealed ferrules and full length housing. This is purely speculative until I break the unit down. Will doing so void my warranty or is this considered normal maintenance? I know Fallbrook is very specific on what can be serviced.
I will post my hub model number and some pictures in the next few days when I get the time to service it. For what it's worth I purchased my hub in 2011. It has about 3000 miles on it now, all commuting to and from work on road.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:40 am
Hi CrazyLemurBoy,
Yes, cracking open the hub will void the warranty. If the hub is in need of replacement, we will replace the hub with a new model as we don't do repairs on units that are potentially damaged.
You can clean inside the cassette body area and inside the shifter if need be, but inside of the hub itself (where the ball bearings are) is what I am referring to when voiding the warranty.
Please provide your serial number and take a look at the questions a few posts up from here and try to answer those in your post. We are currently researching the issues that Oran and Metatron are having, so we can add you to the list if this is the case.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:42 pm
Hello NuVinci Support,
Thank you for the response. I was referring only to the cassette body/freehub mechanism, not the internal gear system itself. This is safe to disassemble yes? I just got back from riding so I haven't had a chance to take a look at the hub yet. I will post my results once I have collected them.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:16 am
There is a sealed cartridge bearing in there, so from a service standpoint, you can pull the bearing apart and re-grease as necessary. Otherwise, yes, you are free to service this area and it will not void the warranty.
We have had customers who have wanted to crack open the actual hub itself and this does void the warranty.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:26 pm
I went ahead and disassembled the cassette/freehub body. What a mess. The freehub seal to the hub face was well breached. I found plenty of grit and grime all around the pawls, which was causing one of them to not 'pop out' and engage at all! I also discovered metal fragments and that all 3 pawls had been blunted or damaged on the face, at least from what I can tell (not particularly visible in my photos). I have never inspected the unit before this time, but the wear I could see was not uniform.
Here is a link to my disassembly photos.
http://imgur.com/a/cCudA#0
Despite the low resolution phone pictures (apologies, no other camera on hand), you can clearly see the large amount of debris that went past the seal. I cleaned the unit and have since re-lubricated it using a middle-weight oil as specified by the manual. It spins much smoother now but I have not gone riding to test it out.
After disassembling the unit all I can say is wow... 3 pawls? 3 points of engagement? Not to mention relying on a very weak retaining ring to provide spring tension. Nobody uses such a low engagement system anymore. Not to mention how well the 'seal' works. I checked my odometer - 2769.5 miles. I purchased this hub to be used on nasty days and poor weather as it had a reputation for robustness. I'll be honest, I am very disappointed in the freehub body.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:30 pm
We have made some significant improvements from a seal and snap ring perspective to the freehub body for 2012, as well as some structural improvements to handle the Gates cogs.
Please send an email to our support group at support@fallbrooktech.com. They can best determine if this would be considered a warranty issue and then can go about replacing the freehub body for you.
We will make sure you are well taken care of through our support group, so do not fear that we won't back up the product for you.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:35 pm
I sent support a message last per your advice. I am interested to see the improvements on the 2012 model should I receive a replacement.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by mwjh on Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:36 am
Probably most so not all problems are solved after mounting the new 2012 freewheel. The new one is partly made out of stronger metal, has a slightly stronger spring and no rubber or plastic sealing anymore. This sealing caused some friction anyhow and reduced the effiency of the hub with at least a few percent in my perception. See pictures
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:08 pm
How long does it take to get an answer on this problem? These bangs and snaps aren't going away by themselves.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:37 pm
I was wondering the same thing as it is now Friday.
If anyone wants to experiment with thrust washers the axel diameter is 17mm.
While I had the wheel off the bike I used one of the snap rings from an old hub to reduce the axial play. The snap ring has a thickness of 0.5mm and this reduced the play by 60 – 70%. The effect on the bang/snap noise however is absolutely nothing. I was expecting it to be reduced but it seems the play has to be completely removed. It makes me wonder if the issue isn’t a lot more complicated.
I also checked the hub for leaks and it is looking good after 550 mile.
It was the first time I had dismantled a 2012 model freewheel and I’m very unimpressed with the seal. CrazyLemurBoy if you are considering getting a 2012 freewheel don’t bother. If the old freewheel seal isn’t up to the job a 2012 one will be hopeless. With the hub being maintenance free and sealed for life it is a pity so little effort has been put into making the freewheel low maintenance.
June 2013 I have been proved wrong on this last point as my free hub is staying clean.
I’m interested to see what the product team come up with to fix the bang/snap noise.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by FransM on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:31 am
I also measured som axial play (on the 2012 freewheel), but only 0,6 mm. But no bangs/snaps whatsoever.
I was also surprised about the apparant lack of seal on the 2012 freewheel. However, after having done some serious dirt riding I saw no contamination in the freewheel.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:54 am
As far as timing on getting an answer, the product team is currently working on the situation and is looking for a resolution.
More to come....
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:31 am
This topic has been moved offline.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:37 pm
I just wanted to say thank you to the support network from Fallbrook. Whenever an issue has cropped up (and not many have!) they have been there 100% to back me up, and have always addressed my concerns quickly. I look forward to maintaining this relationship for many years.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:48 pm
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:44 am
When can we expect those replacement free hubs?
Also, we never got a reply to my question asking what specifically is defective about my free hub that this replacement will solve? What's different with the new one?
Jess
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:23 pm
I have received and installed my new freehub. I've taken it on a few commutes. The freehub body makes a much more pronounced ratcheting noise now, before it was nearly silent. The new seal design seems to have significantly reduced drag on the pawls and the freehub body / hub interface. The engagement is much more pronounced. However, I now have the axial play you guys mentioned, but only when the hub is off the bike. When it's mounted I cannot get the sprocket to move, so this is good enough. Just like old cup and cone bearings I guess.
After a few test rides, I can safely say this model is improved. However, I still experienced one banging noise coming from the hub during a pedal - coast - pedal maneuver on flat land. It has been storming almost around the clock here in central FL so I'm sure the seal is being tested as I just push through the rain. Time will tell. I am happy to report that the service from Fallbrook has been outstanding, they have provided me with fixes for any issue that has cropped up. Thank you.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by Oran on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:13 pm
I also received my new freehub body the other day. This and an extra snap ring which takes up most of the axial play have fixed the issue. I didn’t realize how often it was making the snap/bang noise until it is now silent.
I agree with CrazyLemurBoy about the service from Fallbrook they have always managed to keep my bike equipped with a functioning CVT.
........__o
........\<,
......()/()
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by FransM on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:46 am
A question: Is the new freehub body the 2012 version or is it an update of the 2012 version?
If it is an update, what are the differences?
And what is the extra snap ring? Are there now two snap rings, and do they have te same thickness?
Thanks for any info on this.
Frans
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:59 am
It is the 2012 model. No new updates to speak of. The snap rings should be the same thickness. In general, there should be the one snap ring, but in cases like this, this is where the solution comes into play.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by CrazyLemurBoy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:16 pm
From what I can tell, the biggest improvement is in the seal. It no longer rests on top of the pawls, which introduced drag and when contaminated with road debris or grit the excess friction caused them to malfunction occasionally. Since I've cleaned mine out and used the new parts I was sent I have far more confidence in the freewheel. It clicks with authority unlike my previous model which was hardly audible.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:18 am
In installed the replacement free hub today. But, before I did, I took a couple photos, to see if there were any differences between the old one and the replacement. It seems there are.
The first is the snap ring that holds a washer onto the middle of the old free hub, on the left. This is totally absent from the new free hub, on the right. This hub has been machined with that flange simply a part of the hub. Simpler, fewer parts.
IMGP9680_small.jpg
The next photo shows what I think is the important difference. Note the difference in length of the freehub from the pawl side (up) of the washer on the left hub to the centerline of the pawl spring slot and the same length from the pawl side of the machined flange to the centerline of the pawl spring slot on the new free hub on the right. I have no calipers, but that is at least a millimeter, maybe 1.5 millimeters longer on the original free hub.
IMGP9683_small.jpg
It could be, coupled with the axial play on the old free hub, that the pawls were being held against the inner edge of the hub body by the force of the axial play of the free hub, and not engaging the hub body teeth fully until the axial play of the free hub relaxed, allowing the pawls to drop into the teeth.
The replacement seal is identical to the original. Removing the original snaps off the teeth that hold it onto the hub body, so I used the replacement when I re-assembled the hub. I also used the extra snap ring against the inner snap ring, and there is no further detectable axial play of the free hub.
There are also no further bangs/snaps under operation. I could not re-create the problem.I think the second batch of freehubs is going to do the trick for this model of the N360.
As long as all the oil stays inside of it, we're in business. Well done, Dave. Thanks for your help.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by The_Metatron on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:41 pm
And, it was premature to say those snap/bangs are gone. Took it on my commute run today, and although they were less frequent, they are still there.
Re: 2012 Model N360, freehub bangs/snaps
by NuVinciSupport on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:14 am
Let's see if the snap/ bangs settle in. As you said earlier, as the long as the oil stays inside, we're in business.
If the snap/ bangs don't go away, we can do some more checks/ research into the issue and go from there. Of course, we will do everything we can to rectify the situation for you.
Keep On Smooth Cruising
NuVinci Support
The discussion continued but became about the use of costumers for product development and it was also interrupted by spam. I have decided not to include it as I don’t think it will be helpful.
June 2013 In recent months my hub has begun to make the noise again and it has now done 2200 miles (3500 km). It seems to be a difficult problem to solve although fortunately it seems to have no affect on the function of the hub.
- Oran
